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Cryogenic Elephant In The Room

Discussion in 'Heat Treating' started by Griff, May 24, 2018.

  1. Griff

    Griff Active Member

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    So, since reading and watching Jay Fishers extensive chat/piece on Heat-treating plus Cryo-treating knives to get the uttermost out of all steels (this includes carbon steels, and not strictly limited to modern stainless and tool steels Jay talks about), I started researching Cryogenic Processors.

    This is the model from National Cryogenics Cooperation that was purposely built for knifemakers in mind

    https://www.nationalcryogenics.com/equipment/standard-line-machines/all-new-ltk-27/

    Here are the details of the quote I received back: Pricing in USD

    Base Model $6,470. Then the list of add on's/ upgrades

    1 Maglock lock out - Locks machine while it is in use. Included.
    2 Emergency Stop – Note that there is an E-stop on the HMI already. This is for a physical Emergency Stop
    $75
    3 Stainless Steel inner-chamber $170
    4 4' LN2 transfer hose. Included in base price
    5 Insulated 4' LN2 transfer hose $105 (this seems like a must for Liquid Nitrogen)
    6 6’ LN2 transfer hose. $105
    7 Insulated 6' LN2 transfer hose. $255
    8 Custom length transfer hose/s TBD
    9 Remote viewing/operating capable $575
    10 Data Logging $675

    As you will see here the cost is most definitely surpassing the expense of a grinder and a heat-treat oven as the most expensive pieces of equipment a modern knife maker needs (that is of course if you wish to go this route, I do, Jay's stuff has left quite an impression on me!).

    I have reached out to a person from Nation Cryogenics Equipment because there are models like the LTI-12 that have a supplemental heat option to help bring the blades back to ambient temperature. This was left off the knifemakers model (scratching my head), not sure what knife makers they spoke too...but such an insulated box would take forever to get back to ambient by itself! We don't all have the patience of a saint!

    Another model is the LTI-40 which not only has the capability of heating the blades to ambient temp, but also reaching 500F so you can temper as well without ever having to remove the blades! The base price on that model is $8150 US and to have the tempering heat upgrade it's another $3700, then the rest of the upgrades such as hoses etc. are pretty much as above.

    https://www.nationalcryogenics.com/equipment/standard-line-machines/machine-options/

    That's the page for those two models. You will notice the LTI-12 is has much smaller internal dimensions that the LTK-27

    Hope this was of interest to those on the forum, even if they have no intention of pursuing a Cryogenic prosessor.

    Cheers :beer:

    Griff
     
  2. John Noon

    John Noon Well-Known Member

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    A dewar is most commonly used for the liquid nitrogen although you can ad in a Liquid Nitrogen Withdrawal System if you want.

    This can get you into the process without a second mortgage then you can go up from there if you want.
     
  3. Griff

    Griff Active Member

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    @John Noon I totally missed your response somehow :confused: considering I am on here a lot! Lol!

    John I understand what you are saying, it's just I am getting caught up in the theory that unless you have a controlled decent of 4-5 degrees per minute to deep cryogenic temperature (below -300F) you risk micro fractures from shocking the steel by just dunking knives into LN2. Maybe you can go from ambient to fridge freezer-to dry ice-to dewar/LN2 as a more cost effective treatment? Or are there dewars with such control?
     
  4. John Noon

    John Noon Well-Known Member

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    You would fill a foam container or camping cooler with the LN2 and place the knives in a fryer type basket hanging above the LN2 with lid on the cooler they will get very cold gradually and after a couple hours you can submerge the knives.
     
    parker likes this.
  5. John Noon

    John Noon Well-Known Member

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    Post revival, some accidental research and the 4-6 degree temperature drop per minute looks to be very important parameter to control. Just dunking in liquid nitrogen then removing after a few minutes does not work properly.

    Also found some research that suggests some materials need only to reach the -100 or -300 range with no soak time while some materials need up to 40 hours at temperature.

    I am in the process of getting a build list put together for a do-it-yourself package. With the interface already programmed for common materials.

    Best part is with a controller you can have any temperature and soak time needed to get below the Martensite Finish temperature.
     
  6. Griff

    Griff Active Member

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    Thanks John. Jay Fisher definitely isn’t full of :poop when he talks about controlled temperature decent with cryogenic processors like the one I posted about that started this thread.

    I think I will avoid it all together by treating -like many- my AEB-L and 440C without cryo and foregoing what extra RC point I squeeze out of it, or even easier, just purchasing the Sandvik stainless steels in future, which by the manufacturers recommendation you only need to deep freeze below room temperature in a regular old freezer or dry ice.

    Look Jay’s whole thing is he sells his knives to the real deal special forces etc. around the world, and so yes, he needs to get the utter most out of his steel to saddle up right next to his reputation. Is one of my 440C kitchen knives ever going to be tested like one of Jay’s special forces purposely made tactical blades, I hope not, that would have to be one Killer Tomato, lmfao!

    Cheers,

    Griff
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2020 at 10:18 PM

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